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q. fumes coming out one is are we looking for efficiency what we're looking for quality
and regionally cash was about him calm um and dignity and show you some respect them
the action arising do you put your removing paternalistic tendencies in in in
the management price but now we're talking about percentages which is it
i'm a second dues succumb brought females who who needs to be there
you know which one collaboration more competition we also have a
government worker safety nets were in the roof um editions you were
you were more more is is more um was sorely ah
to do so i'm finally who's in charge it seems that um
but was horribly in a very crude are trying to control what is happening to them but in fact we may not have our
um workshop who's in charge because is it the people who signed tracks with them actually governments
is that the member states remarks missions removing an institution people correct not clear to me
whether at the end of this country should you have the same person room
and i wonder if the people here would would reflect armour tool
so um we pose fonts oh oh probably i'm hopeful arm the program
mm has come up with um thank you very much
for all of the presentations that were very um
interesting i'd like to come back to some of the yeah things that were mentioned
it is as strong belief in mice personal strong belief that the problem
and it starts with the lack of an objective meets assessed cash is
what some of the discussion we're having ram cache comes from the fact that the reasons
uh and objective commonly accepted needs assessment which
also includes not just a humanitarian aspects
but also develop an aspect some potentially what are the things that
that it can actually on the situation given that that um
it's just hard to pull it then we have
different actors side the door also implementing partners
uh developing their our response strategy depending where they oh what is their
their interest and die and that's why i'm the european commission is
in fact very um much or not to be co chairing with out yeah
the work stream or meta says i think yeah some of these things we're discussing
would i be much easy to address if we had that as the
starting point the second thing i want to mention is that uh
the model we're proposing is based on experience from the
previous uh countries where we are we have
uh been acting and we want uh to uh
go towards that a a way of um
of doing cash so it's uh right what i what he'd
said there isn't the place where the totality has been
applied because this is the result of what we've learned so far and this is where we wanna go
so uh like maybe pour in any point again is it
situation at some point you say well i wanna do something about this so
you put all the heads together in you define what you wanna go
not having some way away this has been applied is not necessarily a bad thing
and who
uh i would like to make a point because i think the whole
presentation was based a lot uh echoes little just three more points
one is asked um
and the whole the tape eight and uh it's taking place from the point
of view way each one six and i think we all wait
two i mean this call this about cash collectively not cash what
does it for a group that's what does it will
therefore anybody else so that's the point i'm somebody on the panel before
said we have a net account at the cost of inaction
we have never counted the cost of continuing to to cash in the
way way doing it right now each time discovering the wheeling differ
countries and different situations and i will also take the point of uh
the person who from um cares about way that innovation needs
and neither will collective well appreciation of the possibility of fate
so um i look forward and i would finish there to have a more detailed discussion
or efficiency and effectiveness in the future with put something on the table
we'll discuss it but collectively let's move the ball forward thanks
thank you
and i think it's all the presents as and and i'm here yeah representing crown agents
and i'd like to add to what about said about the program in zimbabwe
and i was like it's a point you made about the importance of the assessments
and as about describes it was a it's a liquidity crisis in zimbabwe
and that market assessment which is essential for the start of any cash program
when i shave that the market was not able to supports icassp bigram parts
me i trade save situation designed by what part as we were
carnations was right on its white with karen aston with effort
i am gave a key well sky nations in s. n.'s supporting the markets to be able to
um and implement this program said that if it funds went see
canadians in the u. k. and then run agents standards
and selected export companies and take those companies and grand ages in zimbabwe
um received the thing you'd say so when i was a funding crisis funds could not
may vast a country imports as well and naples in poker in zimbabwe
that smart case crisis was either come through a market support
program that the private sector was able to implement
so i think it's it's a nice of t. c. pain hits it tape to to
bring that are that aspect of preparation palm shape and an apple talked about that
private sector preparation and it was even broader than that that there were other components of the prop
right exactly in that program that work together to create situations and see the market environments
i had ever on and it's about penny from count for that have not
yet and so each everyone of your presentations i demonstrate said that
to take c. t. p. to scale and to make sure it's if the quality we'll seek
and that requires collaboration and that collaboration contain many different forms which you've also demonstrated
and some of those forms of collaboration and you and they might try
new wells fall down is operational agencies that might involve new taxes
and i agree with what he that the idea of talking about models
it's potentially not right constructive thing in taking this discussion for its
nonetheless it sophisticated topic as we can really see from my last couple of intervention into taking that
so and this is why ask how what we're trying to do is
to advance they seeing as mutual and evidence based way as possible
and i was trying to add to the courts in excellence is to develop guidance on how we can achieve
quality and scale three collaboration and in which context because we know that
the contextual factors really influence which which form the collaboration mark
so and we do that and and i swear framework to compare different models and we
we used it in part for that to vary the comcast visiting mechanics yeah and
and we will be building evidence on existing models i'm conducting comparative
analysis emanations efficiency effectiveness and accountability at the different models
and and eventually building guidance that's just a little preview of this session and
then this day tomorrow morning for anybody who wants to join me that
this is my question to the panel an ace add to fall on the development of this feature guidance
and if you had to recommend three at the most useful areas you would like to see
in guidance on collaboration to quality c. t. p. it scale of what what they see
interesting question and so yeah yeah
what city they yeah and global frame that fraction which will
be presenting tomorrow morning which is really framing kept strategy
what that demonstrates is that a large number of the actions that will help us really advancing it on cast
over quiet collaboration and i think the models that it being described here every single one of them is
a collaborative model of some form said and i'm reflecting what i'm hearing from on and off
thank you my question is halfway take a shackle send net template p. and e. s. to send any
it's around collaboration again have because at the current to modify this cash fancy that way sack
then leave a t. t. refugees in taking a um a way
sat magnets to address the basic needs and was essentially a
and multi purpose buttons and keen could you tell us how where other activities
and also the sector isn't cast is engaged in making decisions around uh
and the design aspects of the of the grant and more specifically t. amount of the band set
uh what kind of needs these grant was meant to cover
the targeting methodology and and uh at a new
and if you if you could tell also how um he came up
with the decision of the multipurpose cash balance a base in
response analysis and how these grants with comp that will be complemented
by other interventions because we know that and peachy alone
yeah it's not it's yeah that but let any requires either types of assistance
say children you can um no actually i i well the thing is the u. r. l. or just like that
it is wrong
or question to the to the colleagues from turkey how did you come up with
the design and the targeting of the park which is previews you can't
uh huh okay thanks very much um it was a collaborative effort
it didn't include every stakeholder inevitably um
it was mostly focused around at that time the government which has various areas
um actually crescent w. or b. echo and the beneficiaries with
a lot of discussion within the fisheries as well
i think what we realise is that we haven't been as strong as possible with some of the
other agencies which is why sings sort of the later part of last year we being really
building that i reach a we've got a whole team that do nothing but that now
um um well we are also working on is where are those complementary activities which you mentioned
i'm very clearly what it's come up for complementary activities
is that ability to drill down much deeper than you can with the big large scale program
um you criteria on never a hundred percent perfect
um there will always be an inclusion exclusion era um we've recently revised
the criteria to try and address a lot of the exclusion error
um but it will never be a hundred percent um and the agencies that have a mobile
focused approach can complement that definitely uh oh well working
increasingly with various both national and international protection agencies
to work on elements of trying to join the dots the
maybe i'm not joined as well as they should be
um one really clear one that is is really key focus at the moment is the literal beneficiaries
because the bank does the distribution of the cards
and therefore the bank is constrained by standard banking regulations
if you cannot sign feel caught you can't receive a card in turkey
the only way that you then have to go to a notary in get a
another to rise phone that you are not able to receive the card
um obviously to have the capacity to do that to identify the lit for people take
them to the no two we get the necessary forms come back to the bank
we will be working on it but the problem is bigger than we are and now a lot of organisations up thing
and i think this sort of links back with the the when the done is uh doing their strategy
have a compliment her to humans the different programs is really important
um and again you know we're trying to learn as we go along um
and this is something that that's come up i'm quite it's quite strongly
i planted
it was the question on the three most useful areas guidance yeah let me try to okay thank you
alright i'm been trying to summarise to make them three right 'cause i'm still fighting
to in terms of what rarity better reading the the first one is uh
all can we be would forbid useful right six i mean we we talked about
becoming more efficient did we can leave private sector is becoming more i mean full full full
when you're doing cage and how can we build that into a prodigious process was trying to engage them when there's
a crisis definitely be up for business trying to to make
things work and uh the second aspect is though
these are the because we're only any is needs to have some kind
of flick for that's meant to to quit that don't yet
does need to be of some kind of flexibility in funding that
allows mostly due process used to be responsive to to
to in order to you know to to remain relevant because if there's some kind of restriction along the way
if we didn't get that through the new process mean not certainly been used a useful
between forms of speech and so that may be very critical so i know
part of what caught between to standardise the tools that we use in but but you small if
that didn't used to be glad to be and be able to get them to do
and the the the left aspect is what was put up by our colleague from product and
trish works if the market for function
and out what what what are we doing on the other side to make
sure that you know not market continued function if we're thinking keychain feature
and you have to think innovative around you know what type of intervention you can
we need to make that contain waiting other ways you you probably in two hundred million the market
market collapse and what happens to the project so maybe i'll try to summarise what three things
yeah i'm very good at
yeah my somebody
through an older the excel at least be the bill really prepared do any decency to to look
good if you're implementing useful till mid look through only one made in the delivery system
both both really relate to mention you donate please
print fungal since both we've got the ballet
implemented implemented d. b. though beneath the touch
and also be already except with preventive mechanism we may get some attention
from really global even eleven and district level and we also know isn't like that
this you'd believe
super movie
and also paused accountability fence was still per button
already one challenge or demand is really high because three learn the
unfortunately as the high disaster problem than be if i was so please believe me to thank you
slightly different i think i mean our centre i mean raised a very important point and repeats should be acknowledged
it was a route your objective use assessment and i think it's extremely important point
and i would add to that also is not only about needs assessment when
we are truly now included in the in the pocket cash is
what about market assessment financial services provider assessment and for you
a nice yard and partners is also the protections as
are we going to do uh_huh any kind of home or not so all of those damages that attracted come together
what the point we're making is is extremely important to consider that assessment is part of the country
in order to create that conversions around assessment first want
to avoid duplication and second to keep it
objective it is important to create to also consider that collaboration works that we've got to
and there are values to be achieved out so if you just start treating one part of the process
on competition bases another part of the process on collaboration bases
it creates an internal and that's that's a conversation we need to have so we can explain where this this difficulties on
because also the other thing is that when we talk about collaboration competition
we see competition as something big agencies should compete with each other
and there we have put some perplexity is what we see is that agencies can collaborate
to come stat to set up the standards that allows the privacy act which is closer to their
nature to compete and come up with the best solution we have nothing to compete be teachers
i mean if we're given every shoes the standards to the net b. would try our best to meet even if
we cannot people looked that would go condoms you know however we cannot compete we have nothing to compete with
i think um
yeah yeah i uh and yeah
yeah i know
okay hi i am mac error manet from care international
my question to you all of the panel
hygiene mitigation potential accessibility barriers for people
who may face different act fat tears compared to your white
or target group and eleven cache thing once it's done
of trance fair and seeking cats at times the cost
for multiple fifteens or cash delivery partners thinking
and high power laughing i sent from russian and my question is for either across
and that gave me so i'm very interested to hear that the yeah
the collaboration when beyond a programmatic issues so you're even sharing an office et cetera
so i wonder if you can say and how has this helped um let's say
improves and a pain points that we sometimes have when
angie hours work with the un especially around
and data and information sharing transparency of 'em around costs and
budgeting and allocation of functions and and accountability for that
thank you and matthew keys from from echo uh just
just a couple of comments one perhaps on the
because a lot has been said about echos cash titans notion this this
is sort of considered to be the only model that we have
and i think what we we pride ourselves on in echo is that we do try
to put in place a context specific solution we don't have one size fits all
and the fact that we've we've we've um produced a cash titans
no doesn't mean that that that's the only show in town
so i think that that's important to to recognise i think also we talk about collaboration we talk about
competition in fact that that that cash so i can snowed is a combination of the two
it does in fact make sure that there should be a lot of competition when it comes to
you know who's actually doing the job in terms of delivering cash and also the other aspects
but then it requires for the thing to function that everything is really collaborative
that there is a way to ensure that there's a proper feedback loop
that the assessments the delivery the monitoring that they all work together
so in fact it's it's competition to get the best value in to get
the most efficient and opened the most effective way of doing things
web let's say competition to get the most efficient and then the feedback loop and the
collaboration to make sure that it's the most effective way we can actually do things
so just maybe not not not not a defence of the the model but just a comment
on that i would have a um maybe a question to the panel in terms of
and proximity to beneficiaries because it's often said that it's very important that
that organisations need to ensure that proximity to beneficiaries to know what's going on
and this is often been achieved option uh through the delivery of assistance
um our view and from one of the reasons perhaps that we we put forward to the
cash guidance note is that there are other ways of achieving that proximity to beneficiaries
we we think that that's very much linked to how how well you do the assessments
and how well you do the monitoring and feed that back throughout the system
so i would be interested in the panel's view on whether
that proximity to beneficiaries can be achieved equally well
um if an organisation is not necessarily doing to to
defer unit that's actually from bad to different organisation
oh yeah just say quickly thank you very much um how quick question for the um the tricky and
yes s. and um you mention the third party money train um i i went it was huh
oh i plan from the very beginning 'cause i thought their party monitoring wasn't going to be
part of that and and secondly he's doing it has that working and then let the second question is
is for what he'd and it's really about the
um wounds on the efficiency effectiveness a issue
if you do have lots of people to live rain on a large scale program what do we do about these multiple overhead costs
which obviously means that less money is tainted beneficiaries in the end thanks
mm yes um
i think the point you're making is that definitely when it comes to passionately that's a realisation which is settling in
and also if you look at how organically organisations that not coming together to
address the issue of efficiency and effectiveness so obviously there is no uh
presumption that you will be taking you like the good old days catching up my hands also
it inclines no hands and delivering to depend fisheries because we would want to just
when it comes to logistics of catch delivering cash basically the music if we had the system of delivery
in order to avoid exactly what that's and if what recipient
organisation has received the resources and the liver to
a common delivery system and this is what we have seen in the case of for example lebanon
maybe even to do the procurement we get the procurement it's actually
so it was volume it was volume related not transaction
so it didn't matter how many times you've delivered through it it responded to what your of
cash for the for the cost of cost was not that big having said that
even when we created the case of love not you you don't know it
but we didn't organisations in this case was w. b. u. n.
e. c. r. and you consortium we worked out an arrangement of not
having multiple what it's so the agencies would not because they were
let's see putting the contract in would not would be charging overheads on not
so as you see the agencies within themselves they are trying to figure out and be
our movie is how is this this is the organic change which is funny
we need to respond to the needs of the modality and therefore we cannot have multiple warheads
and that's where you're trying to find and we have found many ways of working is
not easy because of the cost of innovations are designed around delivery of in concert
so the overhead caustic and then you say it's going to be if we're going
to get for example to the private sector to the delivery of cash
so you are left of it on the remaining amount which is
for when monitoring up and down and all that stuff
what is the what had on that because when you're running a normalisation you cannot have because or what
have your charging on the delivery of assistance actually helps you shouldn't and number of other actions
so ah so the question is you are trying to keep ourselves discipline problem
it's probably on the agenda not to create population multiple and we think that can be achieved
without having to compete with each and backed isn't in time of the system that we are trying to
find we're doing out so good for building on each other's love which each of those uh
grown and the responsibilities
on matters question proximity to been fisheries
for us proximity is fucked up even in the case is when we are
not delivering assistance protection of refugees is what was however there is
a very fundamental issue that you have to keep in mind for you
any c. on unfortunately i'm going to talk about lucy out here
as we talk about protection of refugees vicinity knowing band
access to that he's struggling to not only
if we are because we deal with a set of population
which nobody wants nobody invited everybody wants out more
now for that one organisation has to go into the garment they have certain rights
now to be sitting at the table and talking about whites do need to take something to the table
you as an organisation if you have nothing to tape in terms of resources you will not be at the table
because nobody wants to get some but a bunch of protection people to talk about why you're not giving rights of the people
so assistance in protection that's how it comes together and cannot separate and without making
a protection inefficient and therefore vicinity to the park and if
you're talking about matthew about creating a situation where
one agency or the levers and the other one's actually has visited the partners already are doing that
is nothing new to document stations be happy party pros can be too tough
so there are organisations reviewed speech department would be actually
allows us to access because we are more cost
effective than be that if you shouldn't be on and therefore they allow us to have that access
so all already view doing it bottom line is that we have difficulties with talk at times
um and the questions all that can be do it differently and can
be doing better um i think that's a very private conversation
thank you i'm fine how forks from remaining come up with a first you know
what about this question of proximity your the government and you see which is probably didn't make up
with with troubled we're excerpt list the creepy your beautiful
pool probably will not government institution and also beneath
overall coordination
use covering maybe this you bits also manage them
but by delivering system also
converter to ministry of finance
the this was the lead into the family didn't is
are you and you
locally and yours
and the ball would be to be
so it totally didn't is also accept or double created yeah and delivering system
and also b. r. d. v. where the other guy has rocks the between twenty one bees
no we try to minimise the twenty by twenty one the to also thank you
to um let me just up quickly though by um three new with i
think the communication with the majority of beneficial it's it's getting easier
because of technology and smart phones i think the what
if creating the discrepancy because the most vulnerable
don't have access to that technology and there there is no replacement for
being out on the ground and having that reach but i
think with the calls enters the websites phrase book i think i'm
plenty more the we're probably only just beginning to realise
um for the third party monitoring to once you buy it was planned from the beginning
i think what is true is that possibly a um i don't think any of us
are quite realise how much what the was in setting up the whole project
and if you think that we launched in september piloted in october role that nationwide in of them but
but they live in december and we will be well over eight hundred thousand refugees um in july
it was one of the things they got de prioritised it has now the terms of reference has now been um
signed off by echoed by the government like t. l. c. and w. it be
and the tendering should be starting next week or certainly in july um to do that
um well hand is going to and so on the j. m. c. uh
that was another question um i think the writers mitigating the various
but the the what the the mitigating the battery is you have to start you have to work
out what the bear is that through analysis and then you work out a response strategy
i think that's exactly where we are now i'm part does that play the release from parts and
on the collaboration so it uh i'm still object to talk a little bit
about the program before the different about the social fifteenth before the ascent
not starting from scratch we have already you know three million refugees
were the minister from your social policies had it on
a social safety networking with angie was working on the ground so when we design the program it was again
collaborative approach with them and snapped one the uh the emission of
for calibration it's different dimensions of calibration old people to examples because or isn't is already very
multi dimension the uh program i'd like to give you an example of the agency which you know very well
yeah it on a daily basis what taking decisions that's not only g. m. c.
there is also the minister of finance social policies and the different task force
we have the ascent that's for somebody own structure when the dollars are there
the engine was are there yeah united nations are there and we are
there it to do the it's kind of collaborative approach to on a biweekly basis
yeah another example on the difference we have this service centres who are providing referrals for
on the production side of the program which is providing more why this
is for a sort of safety net will be suffered goes
to n. g. o.s line g. o.s a government uh for the
family and social policies and it's the ah as well
so um uh it's not the that kind of simple
kind of approach for compilation is really complicated and
as we told the sky is that type of learn day by day learning
but improving if each day to try to uh
mitigate the risks and to achieve our goals
but what about thank you i'll start by saying you know if you have any questions you want
more in depth about my presentation i think a kids' been kind enough to print out this
i've got my take only for you can raise the and you can get this corpus from them
or or you can come to me up i just want to appreciate it you know
we can not to go with the value of well you know proximity shows
but i think i'll come back to my earlier remarks that you
know some of the solutions needs to be frequent expect if
what we what what is the that we're talking about and what is the context that we're dealing
and really allows us to be open minded inflexible in terms
of what approaches more meaningful and be able to
leverage planning from different approaches been you didn't come up with evidence that didn't inform what
is more meaningful and what gives of the value of money uh thank you
great thank you very much when keep him from lunch thank you to all the promises um

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Conference program

Nigel Timmins, Humanitarian Director, Oxfam International and Chair of CaLP Board
28 June 2017 · 9:09 a.m.
Formal Welcome
Manuel Bessler, Assistant Director General and Head of Humanitarian Aid Department, SDC
28 June 2017 · 9:48 a.m.
Looking to the future : Panel introduction
Christina Bennett, Head of the Humanitarian Policy Group, ODI
28 June 2017 · 9:56 a.m.
Looking to the future: Social Cash Transfer in Response to Ebola in Liberia
Gabriel Fernandez, National Social Protection Coordinator, Liberian Government
28 June 2017 · 9:56 a.m.
Looking to the future : MasterCard perspective
Ian Taylor, Vice President, Business Development, Government & Public Sector, MasterCard
28 June 2017 · 10:12 a.m.
Looking to the future : International Relations perspective
Jennifer Welsh, Professor and Chair in International Relations, European University Institute and Senior Research Fellow, Somerville College, University of Oxford
28 June 2017 · 10:30 a.m.
Q&A - Looking to the future
28 June 2017 · 10:37 a.m.
Operational Modalities : Panel introduction
Ben Parker, Senior Editor, IRIN
28 June 2017 · 11:08 a.m.
Operational Modalities : Sri Lanka experience
Sithamparapillai Amalanathan, Secretary, Ministry of Disaster Management, Sri Lanka
28 June 2017 · 11:10 a.m.
Operational Modalities : Turkish experience
Orhan Hac?mehmet and Jonathan Campbell, Resp: Coordinator Of Kizilaykart Cash Based Assistance Programmes, Turkish Red Crescent - Deputy Country Director, WFP, Turkey
28 June 2017 · 11:21 a.m.
Operational Modalities : Zimbabwe experience
Abel. S. Whande, Team Leader, Cash Transfer Program, Care International in Zimbabwe
28 June 2017 · 11:36 a.m.
Operational Modalities : UNHCR experience
Waheed Lor-Mehdiabadi, Chief of Cash-Based Interventions, UNHCR
28 June 2017 · 11:45 a.m.
Q&A - Operational Modalities
28 June 2017 · 12:01 p.m.
Scaling Up Cash In East Africa : Panel introduction
Christina Bennett, Head of the Humanitarian Policy Group, ODI
28 June 2017 · 1:32 p.m.
Scaling up Cash in East Africa: Nisar Majid
Nisar Majid, Independent Researcher, Consultant and Visiting Fellow, Feinstein International Centre, Tufts University
28 June 2017 · 1:32 p.m.
Scaling Up Cash In East Africa : ADESO perspective
Deqa Saleh, Cash and Social Protection Advisor, ADESO
28 June 2017 · 1:46 p.m.
Scaling Up Cash In East Africa : WFP perspective
Ernesto Gonzalez, Regional Advisor for cash-based programmes, WFP Bureau for Central and Eastern Africa
28 June 2017 · 1:52 p.m.
Scaling Up Cash In East Africa : Relief International perspective
Alex Gray, Global Humanitarian Director for Relief International
28 June 2017 · 1:58 p.m.
Cash Barometer and community perspectives of CTP in Afghanistan
Elias Sagmiester, Programme Manager, Ground Truth Solutions
28 June 2017 · 2:35 p.m.
First long-term trial of a Universal Basic Income, Kenya
Joanna Macrae, Director, European Partnerships, GiveDirectly
28 June 2017 · 2:44 p.m.
Changing from a pipeline to a platform
Paula Gil Baizan, Global Humanitarian Director Cash-Based Programming, World Vision International
28 June 2017 · 2:51 p.m.
Grand Bargain and GHD cash work streams
Emily Henderson, Humanitarian Adviser, DFID
28 June 2017 · 3:02 p.m.
Donor Perspectives : Panel introduction
Thabani Maphosa, Vice President for Food Assistance, World Vision International, World Vision US
28 June 2017 · 3:39 p.m.
Donor Perspectives : ECHO vision
Androulla Kaminara, Director, DG ECHO
28 June 2017 · 3:42 p.m.
Donor Perspectives : Office of Policy and Resources Planning's vision
Paula Reed Lynch, Director, Office of Policy and Resources Planning, Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration
28 June 2017 · 3:49 p.m.
Donor Perspectives : Norway vision
Ingunn Vatne, Minister Counsellor and Head of the Humanitarian team, Permanent Mission of Norway in Geneva
28 June 2017 · 3:58 p.m.
Donor Perspectives : DFID vision
Patrick Saez, Senior Adviser, Humanitarian Policy and Partnerships, DFID, UK
28 June 2017 · 4:08 p.m.
Donor Perspectives : Centre for Global Development vision
Jeremy Konyndyk, Senior Policy Fellow, Centre for Global Development
28 June 2017 · 4:22 p.m.
Q&A - Donor Perspectives
28 June 2017 · 4:39 p.m.
Closing Remarks
Alex Jacobs, Director, CaLP
28 June 2017 · 5:27 p.m.

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