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Building Bridges, Not Walls
Susan Dray, Dray & Associates
Wednesday, April 22, 2015 · 2:36 p.m. · 01h 16m 33s
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Actually so welcome to the lifetime
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practise a work session. Um I'm
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logically from tufts university and
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just briefly before introduces and tell
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you how we picture. Um other than she's
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wonderful there is actually a process
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and you may wonder for the future
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there's a no sick I has an awards
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committee people survey that people
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generally that belong to the second
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academy people serve on it for three
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years. And this is my last year I
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served as chair in the in my last year
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and we act fabulous winners we think
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next year if you'd like to Nam is an
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open nominations process both for this
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award and for the second academy. So if
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you'd like to nominate someone that the
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process runs around the for Steve finer
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will be chair next year so by all means
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feel free to nominate people. But
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meanwhile let's talk about Susan on the
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first let me tell you what this award
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is for the second lifetime practise
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award is presented to someone writing
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videos for outstanding contributions to
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the practise and understanding of HCI
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it recognises the best and most
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influential applications of HCI and I
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know what makes you sound all their
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lifetime of innovation and leadership
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Um so Susan who needs no introduction
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of gets one anyway. Um a seasoned raise
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what advise the human centre design
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since nineteen seventy nine when hardly
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anyone could spell it she worked in the
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human factors research group at
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Honeywell she worked at American
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express on corporate yeah usability of
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corporate systems she was one of the
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founders of sick I in nineteen eighty
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two numbers here remember that I think
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she found their own form in nineteen
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ninety three and this provided user
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experience research for a wide range of
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clients over many years. Um she
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believes that I'm sure it's true that
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she would because one of the th at ten
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first consultants in HCI which is
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extremely likely to be true so policies
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she's a she did one the first
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ethnographic studies done by a
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consultant for Hewlett Packard back in
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nineteen ninety four she's worked with
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international users. She's worked with
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usability studies in homes long before
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anyone did that kind of thing she's
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contribute the evolution of usability
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experience research and practise field
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research naturalistic usability
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evaluation international usability
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research back before you know most
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people would just doing your glass one
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way glass in offices. Um just what more
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recently in developing countries she's
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help to perform a predator create the
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you see if you CD for the user centred
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design for development community. She's
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currently a full rights colour on the
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faculty of the technological university
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of panama. She's a fellow human factors
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and ergonomics society in ACM
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distinguished engineer she won the
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second lifetime service award. And now
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it's time to win the second lifetime
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practise toward a more talk is is
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called building bridges not walls says
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that right there on the interdependence
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of academics and practitioners in human
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computer interaction and I think it's
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gonna be very interesting I'm delighted
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to welcome Susan and force all you're
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from wow my lifetime well it's a really
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great honour to be here with you and to
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have won this award reflecting back on
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my career in sync I and the chi
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conference is gonna really wonderful
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luxury that's not something that I have
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spent a lot of time thinking about
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recently but this lectures it really
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has been a really good I like the
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opportunity to share with you something
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that's really near and dear to my
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heart. Now it may seem strange to you
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but I like many practitioners that I've
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talked to over the years. Um had often
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felt sort of like a second class
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citizen a car I was really prestigious
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just for after all the papers right.
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And I've never written one because as
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hard as it is to get into try I think
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that as an as a practitioner it would
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be almost impossible there are some
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practitioners of high great papers but
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it it just doesn't feel like it's
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terribly likely because it wouldn't be
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an academic paper. Um and this is in
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part because of the way that we ask
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fast papers and it's also and it and
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it's also because of other factors like
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that all get into later on you know I
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hide the sleeves things like case
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studies and oh by the way. I so back
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here in orange and I and two of our
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colleagues are co chairs for case
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studies plug for next year. And we're
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looking forward to having some really
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wonderful case studies to to include
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from all over the world case studies we
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changed a little bit this year
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hopefully it will be a little bit it
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will it will look different when you
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see the call but please read it and
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hopefully submit okay so I think that
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you know this is one of the reasons I
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think that this is because of the
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problem that I'm gonna talk about today
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so I want to talk with you about what I
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feel is a big problem. And I actually
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believe it's a big enough problem that
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it threatens our field. It's that
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serious. Um it's something there for
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that I think we all need to care about
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it's a problem because we live in
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really different worlds academics and
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practitioners. And so the question is
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what can we do what's the impact of
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this what can we do to try to solve
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that now. I'm going to present
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generalities and of course generalities
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are often wrong for the individual even
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if they're right overall. Um there are
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certainly academics of and number of
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you in this room who do a wonderful job
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of working across this for about a good
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well sorry I think it's time for water
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what you think and they're
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practitioners also who are working at
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bridging. Um and so that's fabulous and
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gold stars keep it up there are also
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master's programs nowadays for
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practitioners at places like you see
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refine Carnegie mellon Georgia tech
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university Washington design and
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engineering school Bentley college and
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to name a few I mean that's actually
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most of them but it's not not too bad.
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So super big but it's pretty good and
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it's also not personal okay I wanna say
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that again it's not personal most of us
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have wonderfully cordial relationships
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with each other here. And are good
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friends I have many wonderful wonderful
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friends and colleagues including the
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guy who introduced me who are in
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academia. And I hope that my academic
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friends feel that way about me. Um so
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it's it's not personal there certainly
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are people who are doing this. But I
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still believe it's a really serious
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problem. And I still believe that it's
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something we need to do something about
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so this wall this wall between the
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world of academia and the world of
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practise specifically I think it is a
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major difference in our mindset in our
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perspectives it can occur even
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competition is and actually I know of a
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number of companies where there's a
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wall between the research organisation
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and the rest of the organisation so
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company I know several companies where
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people in the research don't don't are
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allowed to work don't talk to anybody
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in the business organisation now
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probably very few if you have lost
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sleep that has it's one of those
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silence killers you know like whatever
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disease it is that's a silent killer.
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Um I know what's something that the
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second leadership has certainly
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struggled with this over the years. And
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they've they've really done a good job
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I think about how to how to evaluate
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and value practitioners from a
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historical perspective unfortunately
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back in nineteen ninety one and number
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of practitioners like off just to form
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what at that time was called the
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usability professionals association
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which is now called the user experience
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professionals association. Um I was the
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director publications for you XPA for
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six years. And believe me I tried
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really hard to get them to recognise
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Scott I and to recognise the value of
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the kind of research and the kind of
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mindset that those of you in this room
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bring was real easy for so there I
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believe this wall really damages both
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practise and research. And specifically
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if we think about three groups we have
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students. And increasingly now with
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academia being a having a harder time
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finding jobs academia. Um a lot of
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students are going in the industry. And
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unfortunately it's very hard for
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academic programs to fully prepare them
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for their new also industry academics
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of course are concerned about this
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they're worried about preparing their
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students but it also as funding becomes
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a leaner. And and harder to get in lean
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times. It's harder to be Q let's just
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say relevant when you aren't connected.
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It's really hard to do this with a
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silver but anyway. Um it's also true
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that there are things that are valuable
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in industries things like datasets and
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that could really help with Reese to
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make research been more interesting.
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And more relevant. But it's hard to do
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that and so without that one cage. Um
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it can it can you can lose the
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opportunity to to make your research
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more relevant now I'm a practitioner.
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So gonna say and number of things about
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practitioners that are I think are
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issues I don't want to apply that there
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are there issues that practitioners are
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more messed up in some way they're not
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these are things I know about more
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because of my having worked as a
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consultant for a long time and that
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many of these things that I'm gonna
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talk about are things that people have
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brought us in to try to help them in
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their own organisations combat. Um but
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unfortunately with practitioners if we
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lose our scientific foundation. We
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really risk becoming just technicians
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people who you know anybody can do it.
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So why bother hiring somebody who
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actually knows something about user
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experience human computer interaction
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be it would be name it what it will
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what you will it these skills are work
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as practitioners and it makes it much
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more tactical more peripheral it's just
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a checkbox you just have to I have to
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do something with usability at to do
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something with the user it doesn't
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matter what I do and this is
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unfortunately it's already started
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happen. Um so as a field we start
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losing our impact as a result of
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practitioners becoming do skilled et
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cetera. So it all really pay a price
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for this and then okay so the thing is
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that in order to address and solve this
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problem. We first have to understand
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what the real differences are because
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the mindsets that we have are different
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for reasons and after all it's not
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because we don't want to be to be do
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this it's really hot and it's also not
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personal as I said before. However
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there are some who take it that way
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I've heard epithets from sperm people
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in at the practise practitioner
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community call academic some kinda
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nasty things like buttons in the ivory
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tower or nasal naval base and don't
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know about the real world last pretty
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harsh. And I've also heard
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practitioners called fuzzy headed
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opportunists using questionable
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methods. I even heard of practitioners
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being called horrors by academics. Now.
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We're never gonna solve the problem as
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long as we have hold these kinds of
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believes is harsh words aside you know
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we have to admit there's some truth in
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them but we still have to find ways
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that we can be it can we we can really
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come to understand the relativity of
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our own thinking. Um and so on and part
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of the problem is that they're not a
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lot of us who have experience in both
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feet in both camps who've been
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academics and practitioners there
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certainly are some of you know some of
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you in this room in fact and I don't
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claim to be to be academic because this
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is a four month post you know okay but
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the fact that we don't know these
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things I think is important so that's
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why I wanna talk with you about can
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comparing and contrasting the mindset
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of academia. And the mind set up
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practise and by the way this picture is
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from that early to grab it was actually
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the second that the graphics study we
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did in offices and this guy was in
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amsterdam. But that actually is me over
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there on the far corner so some of some
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of you may know this amazing man who's
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no longer with this this is scary
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Marsden with at the university of cape
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town this is just this is a a photo
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from a talk he gave the world society.
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But as we all know academics say we
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have to publish or perish right this is
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I mean we all know this right ten year
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for young researchers tenure as a goal
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and obviously you have to be publishing
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in order to get tenure advancement to
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profess to rank for those of of us were
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further along in their careers also
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takes publishing we also of course
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academics I'm I'm gonna use the we for
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both of these if there's one of
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knowledge is really important making
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stuff is important learning about the
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world and the tech not how technology
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and people work together that's very
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important as as teaching but when it
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comes right down to it publisher parish
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is what really lose rules today now the
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world of the practitioner is really
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different it's really complex it is a
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very different type of intellectual
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enterprise from that of academia. But
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it is a very legitimate one
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practitioners have by and large the
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mindset of produce for parish. And our
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goal is to contribute to product
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success secondary goal for many of us
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is integrating HCI or usability or use
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you user experience or whatever into
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the software development process or the
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development process. Um and get by and
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and real understanding I mean many
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times I think a lot of people in at
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least in the US of many it many people
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know that they need to have some of
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this UX stuff but they don't really
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know what it is and so there are a lot
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of people who are trying to to get that
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that or no it's funny if you look at
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the job postings on something like when
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dan for user experience people you'll
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see that they're asking for all kinds
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of coding tools and this and that and
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the other thing and the last thing on
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the list is you know knowledge of human
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computer interaction or usability or
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whatever yeah a friend of mine who is
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actually a rocket scientist has a PHD
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from Harvard in astrophysics had this
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on his wall. It's a lot like rocket
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science but a lot harder it's not
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rocket science with her a lot harder.
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Um he's currently doing user experience
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work and I think this is a lot about
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about what what is what he practitioner
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P a practitioner can be so for
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academics it C I.'s record discipline
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if you're in an HCI department this is
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really different however from
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practitioners practitioners are often
00:17:57
scattered into work groups where they
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may be the only eight CI person and
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they have to work collaboratively with
00:18:06
lots of other people in order to
00:18:07
survive and integrate with the team
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some companies like Google and face
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book and some of the ones here do have
00:18:17
multiple you X people on the team. But
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still you X is kind of a strange
00:18:22
discipline the impact therefore
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especially for people on a where the
00:18:29
singleton the doesn't come from the
00:18:32
soundness the methodology for which
00:18:35
nobody on the team can assess a or
00:18:40
anything like that comes a personal
00:18:41
influence it comes from charisma comes
00:18:43
from persuasive this comes from concise
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this something I have trouble okay and
00:18:50
how they compute can communicate with
00:18:52
people who are in the profession now if
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we talk about careers in academia there
00:19:00
is an expectation on the part of many
00:19:03
people that there's a there's a trap
00:19:06
it. There's you don't change
00:19:09
specialities a whole lot you might make
00:19:11
a little deviation like here curves
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into the into the bushes at the end but
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there's relatively less job movement go
00:19:19
up the academic ladder. And that's
00:19:22
pretty much the expectation. However
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with practitioners this is really not
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true. This lots more movement in and
00:19:31
out of related fields up the corporate
00:19:34
ladder any remote it requires
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important. It requires practitioners to
00:19:39
be really adept at switching mindsets.
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There's gonna be couldn't that of
00:19:45
course switching content areas going to
00:19:49
work on a completely new product that
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doesn't have anything to do with
00:19:52
anything you've ever worked on before
00:19:55
taking different organisational walls
00:19:56
may be moving into a different
00:19:58
department or even it into different
00:20:00
conch company now for consultants this
00:20:03
is that's the name of the game
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everything you work on as a consultant
00:20:08
it's a one off it's a new thing at
00:20:09
least that's been my experience. So now
00:20:13
let's talk about time before do this I
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wanna make it clear that everybody is
00:20:18
working really hard okay this isn't
00:20:20
about who works harder. Everybody feels
00:20:23
they work harder than anybody else
00:20:25
which is probably true but there are
00:20:27
differences in the way that time is
00:20:29
actually measure whatever academic time
00:20:35
tends to be measured in terms of things
00:20:38
like the academic scheduling around
00:20:41
teaching or research milestones or rack
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cycles or paper due dates or case study
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due dates. Um and in general these are
00:20:52
somewhat longer time timelines then the
00:20:56
average practitioner is going to be a
00:21:00
experiencing. Now that said it's
00:21:03
absolutely possible that if you are in
00:21:06
competition for instance we've gotta
00:21:08
get our results out before CMU gets
00:21:11
there's out "'cause" working on
00:21:12
something similar or if you have an
00:21:15
industry partnership that can speed up
00:21:18
the time quickly. But in general I
00:21:22
remember this is generalities in
00:21:25
general it's a different way of
00:21:27
measuring time practitioner time tends
00:21:30
to be much for it's measured in hours
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and days weeks orders sometimes years
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almost never and scheduled around
00:21:44
internal meetings in deliverables
00:21:47
product lifecycle seems like that that
00:21:49
tend to be much more granular. And
00:21:53
require people to be moving a lot I'll
00:22:00
talk about the impact of all of these
00:22:02
things after we've gone through sort of
00:22:03
what the different what some of these
00:22:05
differences are so for success for
00:22:15
academics you're expected to get we
00:22:18
have research grants to support
00:22:20
students and things like that to
00:22:22
publish to have great citations to have
00:22:27
wonderful graduate students. Um who
00:22:30
have graduated from from you know from
00:22:32
you my students. And where they go.
00:22:36
That's all important. And ultimately
00:22:38
the impact the H index the quality of
00:22:42
publications the influence you have in
00:22:44
your own area we're becoming the expert
00:22:47
and what you do these are all things
00:22:49
that are are are markers of marriage
00:22:53
for academics well for practitioners
00:22:59
it's a little bit in general looking at
00:23:04
things like your internal reputation
00:23:07
whether you get raises for yourself. Um
00:23:11
there are there is team. And time
00:23:15
pressure to be flexible and creative in
00:23:19
coming up with new ways of getting data
00:23:21
in ever shorter periods of time and
00:23:25
there's very little reward if any and
00:23:28
almost no time unless you count three
00:23:30
AM in the morning. Um for publishing
00:23:33
you can already see that's a big
00:23:36
difference we don't get the benefit of
00:23:39
the practitioner experience because
00:23:41
they are here with us when people when
00:23:46
an actor academic is looking at going
00:23:48
to high there may be an issue of do we
00:23:51
have enough money and things like that
00:23:52
but it isn't like this is a strange
00:23:54
thing to do which it is for a lot of
00:23:57
practitioners of many many companies no
00:23:59
longer even support conference
00:24:02
attendance and you have to make a much
00:24:04
different case. So academics will say
00:24:08
yes practitioners will say no that
00:24:11
really changes the dynamics in the in
00:24:13
the conference. So if we look at
00:24:17
bunting there are a variety of sources
00:24:21
obviously of funding for academia for
00:24:24
academic some of it is universally
00:24:26
finding a lot of it maybe even most of
00:24:29
it is comes in external to the
00:24:32
organisation on research grants your
00:24:35
that's coming from places like the
00:24:39
chinese and and SFC which is the
00:24:42
chinese equivalent as I understand it
00:24:44
somebody who knows this better can tell
00:24:47
me if I'm wrong equivalent of is the
00:24:49
national science foundation in US also
00:24:53
increasingly increasingly foundations
00:24:58
like the Macarthur foundation and the
00:24:59
bill and Melinda Gates foundation are
00:25:02
having are issuing grants that are
00:25:04
being used partnering with academic
00:25:06
something's the thing is that usually
00:25:10
research grants are reviewed mostly at
00:25:13
least by your peers people under
00:25:16
standard discipline people who look and
00:25:18
see what the value of what you're
00:25:20
talking about is and the funders are
00:25:23
expecting that in the advancement of
00:25:27
knowledge understanding of the value of
00:25:30
the research and putting that forward
00:25:32
it's really important that you can show
00:25:33
the value. But the value in terms that
00:25:36
people work here's well understand and
00:25:42
the ability to be very complete in your
00:25:46
description really thorough. And have
00:25:49
really good references. That's really
00:25:52
convincing sometimes it's you know even
00:25:55
the line within reason this is
00:25:58
different for for practitioners we're
00:26:01
funded through corporate budgets which
00:26:03
are usually department role unit is
00:26:07
this unit allocations. They're reviewed
00:26:09
our requests are reviewed by people
00:26:11
outside our discipline and we are
00:26:14
constantly having to sell usability or
00:26:16
user centred design even in car
00:26:19
organisations that are built block and
00:26:22
people kind of go well why did have to
00:26:25
resell salad well people move into new
00:26:29
jobs et cetera. So the people who are
00:26:33
evaluating requests are expecting a
00:26:37
return on investment or contribution to
00:26:40
commercial success. And on like the
00:26:43
academic value for completeness bracket
00:26:48
is what's convincing it you've heard of
00:26:50
the elevator pitch maybe a lot of you
00:26:52
have them. That's what you have to get
00:26:55
down to so it's really fast and this
00:27:00
press sure means has many impacts that
00:27:04
are related to the time impacts that
00:27:06
we'll talk about a minute if you think
00:27:09
about academic values. Um academic surf
00:27:14
a lot I look you guys were academics
00:27:17
you are able to tease things apart to
00:27:22
look at the dynamics and the see the
00:27:24
detail. Um you may be able to you you
00:27:29
may have a look at things for
00:27:30
statistical significance or you may be
00:27:33
using qualitative methods. But you're
00:27:36
you either way you're doing rigorous
00:27:39
analysis really looking at that data
00:27:41
and coming in and making clear what the
00:27:44
case is the goal of course is as I said
00:27:49
before deepening knowledge creating new
00:27:51
stuff whether that's interaction styles
00:27:54
or whatever. And so so those that
00:27:58
ability to really narrow narrowly look
00:28:02
in closely really important. And it can
00:28:06
by and large you're looking at peers
00:28:09
judgements of you insiders. And in fact
00:28:15
your academic title has a lot you think
00:28:19
here's your under standards and explain
00:28:22
errors and explorers I think that the
00:28:25
very grant title of the very title
00:28:28
about on a grant of the principal
00:28:30
investigator sort of says it all it's
00:28:32
wonderful. It's just great things are
00:28:36
kinda different and practitioner land
00:28:39
however practitioners have to make
00:28:42
design decisions based on a very
00:28:44
complex interaction of factors many
00:28:48
times they just do not have the data
00:28:52
that they need to really make the
00:28:54
decision that would be absolutely
00:28:57
right. But there's no time the data
00:29:00
doesn't exist there's no way to get it
00:29:02
it would cost too much. It's impossible
00:29:04
to find out whatever the emphasis then
00:29:08
is on practical significance not
00:29:10
statistical for the most part "'cause"
00:29:14
there's just pressure remember the
00:29:16
pressure on results team or can buy and
00:29:20
and rigorous measurement is almost all
00:29:23
always something that kinda goes by the
00:29:26
wayside except for its there are
00:29:29
certainly companies like fidelity zap
00:29:33
for example of a bank that does under
00:29:35
time tallest does wonderful very large
00:29:39
maybe testing and a lot of other things
00:29:42
like that that really are focusing on
00:29:45
there really big gay to stuff a big
00:29:47
data is something that is definitely
00:29:50
moving in to the practise world it's
00:29:52
just not quite there yet but it's on
00:29:56
its way. Um this that's however
00:30:01
oftentimes are themselves gathered in a
00:30:04
somewhat routine eyes way or and our
00:30:07
gather kind of quantitatively. So they
00:30:10
touch on the kinds of things that we do
00:30:12
and maybe we can be instrumental in
00:30:14
helping to identify for instance
00:30:17
questions that should be on a survey or
00:30:20
bad questions of course there so make
00:30:22
that questions it's so easy to write
00:30:25
that questions isn't it it's really
00:30:26
hard could questions per questionnaire
00:30:29
for those of you like me were around in
00:30:35
the day this is actually the audience
00:30:38
it but in that high eighty three in
00:30:40
Boston I haven't found you in it raw
00:30:44
but I'm sure you're there so when you
00:30:50
think about communication the main
00:30:54
audiences for academics are on other
00:30:58
academics administrators other HCI
00:31:01
people remember I at the beginning I
00:31:03
said generalities of course there are
00:31:06
other people you're talking to people
00:31:08
with grant you know with in the grant
00:31:11
in the granting cycle et cetera. But
00:31:13
still there's that insider miss again
00:31:17
that that the fact that you're able to
00:31:22
communicate in technical language each
00:31:27
each discipline has their own genre.
00:31:30
And many researchers have a theme but
00:31:33
they are or want to be known by known
00:31:35
for and way convincing people is to use
00:31:38
the socratic method right discussion
00:31:41
argument discussion argument that's
00:31:45
really unfortunately for us
00:31:49
practitioners we're communicating with
00:31:51
an awful lot of different people from
00:31:54
all kinds of disciplines. And different
00:31:57
countries companies companies to
00:32:00
working with this as people with team
00:32:04
members engineers and usually we have
00:32:08
to use the other language we have to
00:32:10
find a way to communicate. And of
00:32:12
course being good human centre design
00:32:15
people of course we think in terms of
00:32:18
understanding the other and being able
00:32:22
to communicate in their language so
00:32:24
once again practitioners on the outside
00:32:27
and to convince we usually have to use
00:32:32
numbers return on investment things
00:32:34
like that were other signs of impact.
00:32:36
But not an age index for sure some of
00:32:39
you may recognise that this is the
00:32:40
partial part of the cast from the
00:32:43
actually it's one of my absolute
00:32:46
favourite cartoons called you sure and
00:32:49
they're wonderful now what are the
00:32:52
impacts with the impacts of this wall
00:32:55
on academics. Well I think it's you
00:32:59
know I mentioned earlier there's this
00:33:00
lack of exposure to corporate data
00:33:04
which can restrict research. And and
00:33:09
there's also I think on the part of
00:33:11
some people and I don't think this is
00:33:13
true for those of you in the room. But
00:33:15
I think it is true for maybe some of
00:33:16
the people work here. Um is that
00:33:19
there's kind of a lack of understanding
00:33:21
of as to what the potential benefits
00:33:23
might be a partnering with a
00:33:25
practitioner there are lots of exciting
00:33:29
things happening in industry these days
00:33:31
lots and lots of them I used to say
00:33:33
that almost everything that was really
00:33:36
really cutting edge was happening
00:33:39
industry despite what was all the
00:33:40
interesting things were happening here.
00:33:43
Um the things I was seeing in in in
00:33:45
industry were even further even more
00:33:49
cutting edge even more exciting and of
00:33:52
course even more confidential we talked
00:33:57
about the potential impact on students
00:34:00
and it can be harder to get internship
00:34:03
possible possibilities and
00:34:04
opportunities for students if you don't
00:34:06
have that kind of link with academia.
00:34:09
And start with practitioners. Now. I
00:34:12
have a long list for practitioners and
00:34:14
assess that at the beginning it's not
00:34:16
because practitioners are more messed
00:34:17
up although. Maybe so but because this
00:34:21
is what I know right as a consultant
00:34:24
and these are the things that I hear
00:34:26
have heard about what icon in to
00:34:28
companies and worked closely with
00:34:30
people we're trying to make changes and
00:34:32
some of these things within their own
00:34:34
companies. So but focus the the
00:34:38
pressure the time the shortness of the
00:34:41
time that make it really that it's huge
00:34:47
pressure on on part practitioners to
00:34:50
cut corners just satisfies some people
00:34:53
use that word sentence was and you know
00:34:56
what this would be a really good place
00:34:59
to have some help from our academic
00:35:01
friends because sometimes I think
00:35:05
corners can be cut and other times they
00:35:07
can't but as a practitioner you don't
00:35:11
necessarily have the knowledge. Um or
00:35:15
the inside to know which is which so
00:35:19
for instance I know a company that was
00:35:23
is has been using what they call
00:35:24
meeting you X and they're the about
00:35:28
evaluate products with maybe fewer and
00:35:32
fewer people each time maybe three
00:35:34
users from three different roles as an
00:35:36
example. And the question I always have
00:35:40
is like when is it long enough. I mean
00:35:43
does it get to point where instead of
00:35:46
doing three users and three roles we do
00:35:49
one user who used to do two roles and
00:35:52
then maybe we just kind of it it's like
00:35:54
a mule packed that you actually drop
00:35:56
drop and and it's enough for the whole
00:35:59
whole thing. This kind of problem try
00:36:02
anything so there's just this pressure
00:36:06
to compromise to cut the number to use
00:36:10
different ways of recruiting in sort of
00:36:13
carefully figuring out you know what
00:36:16
you need in the kind of folks that
00:36:18
you're talking with instead doing what
00:36:21
we call a friends and family recruit
00:36:22
you know which is obvious what that is
00:36:24
right. Um and that's fine sometimes
00:36:27
sometimes it exactly right. But it's
00:36:30
not always in fact it often isn't. But
00:36:33
it gets done a lot another thing that's
00:36:40
I see I've seen this so often. And that
00:36:43
is that there just isn't time. And
00:36:48
sometimes there is a knowledge to
00:36:51
analyse what you're finding. And and to
00:36:55
really understand it and so you you
00:37:00
sort of abdicate your role for this
00:37:02
your the responsibility to analyse to
00:37:05
do analysis. And you know you tell the
00:37:08
executive vice president sometimes what
00:37:11
they wanna hear. Um and you have all
00:37:14
that have yes oh you know this is just
00:37:16
based on three people and they'll be
00:37:18
more data to be doing analysis and all
00:37:21
this kind of stuff well all of that
00:37:23
gets forgotten what we're is remembered
00:37:26
is what you tell them after that and
00:37:32
it's really hard when what happened
00:37:35
with the first three turns out to not
00:37:37
be the case with the next forty because
00:37:40
they've already encoded what it's gonna
00:37:44
be what what it is based on that really
00:37:47
those really findings. Um another thing
00:37:52
I've seen and unfortunately all too
00:37:56
often is using fieldwork as an
00:37:59
opportunity to go anecdote collecting
00:38:01
is kinda like butterflies in now you
00:38:03
know. So you don't go visit a lot of
00:38:07
people use this one person and you
00:38:08
record all the little G M.'s that you
00:38:11
can and that's it no analysis no not
00:38:17
and you take it home and you make it
00:38:19
into a nice little persona with five
00:38:21
cute pictures and that's it. That's not
00:38:25
the way to do it. Right this was the
00:38:28
same right okay that's not the last
00:38:34
audience participation just more you
00:38:36
want okay oh sorry my evil lapses
00:38:44
slackers getting away because there
00:38:48
isn't support for publishing you never
00:38:50
get the feedback from your peers saying
00:38:53
this is a four ship method you just
00:38:56
never know and you know come to a
00:38:59
conference you never get you really
00:39:01
never learn what you need to do is you
00:39:06
know another thing this may be a
00:39:09
radical but remote usability now a
00:39:13
remote usability can be great if you
00:39:15
know the context the types of people et
00:39:20
cetera and you have the task that lends
00:39:22
itself to that but remote usability is
00:39:25
not appropriate for an awful lot of the
00:39:27
things it's getting used to use for
00:39:29
today. And oh my goodness the other day
00:39:32
I heard somebody talking about remote
00:39:35
ethnography is yeah I see more not not
00:39:43
it's really treacherous don't you think
00:39:46
I mean this is not good and for
00:39:49
consultants unfortunately I hate to say
00:39:51
this it's kind of a race to the bottom
00:39:53
you know whoever's the cheapest
00:39:55
fastest. That's the one who's gonna get
00:39:58
the job. They're being hired people
00:40:00
have no idea about quality they don't
00:40:03
know the difference so they just go on
00:40:05
price or they just go on how much time
00:40:06
is gonna take yeah and therefore
00:40:10
they're also hiring lower level people
00:40:13
they're getting core results which can
00:40:15
have low back on our whole profession.
00:40:17
Um and it's a problem it put I think
00:40:21
this kind of stuff puts our profession
00:40:24
risk yes we need to adapt to change of
00:40:27
course but we should not be doing so at
00:40:31
the express at the expense of course
00:40:34
scientific principles of our
00:40:35
profession. And sometimes we need to
00:40:39
know what we can do push back when
00:40:43
we're asked to do things that don't
00:40:44
make sense. Um so that we don't end up
00:40:48
in a situation where people don't think
00:40:50
we need any kind of special training.
00:40:52
So it this kills us. And therefore our
00:40:57
whole pipeline of jobs goes away
00:41:00
collapses I think it's kind of what can
00:41:04
you tell so the result we have a wall
00:41:09
and yes there an arrow slits where we
00:41:11
can shoot at each other sometimes or we
00:41:13
can call through but because of these
00:41:18
very different types of intellectual
00:41:20
activity and work styles and
00:41:22
organisational little blue dynamics and
00:41:25
values that are very deep and
00:41:26
fundamental we there is this well that
00:41:30
we really have to I believe do your
00:41:34
with now. We are in applied field. We
00:41:38
need each other we're like Madison in
00:41:41
biology right academics biology and
00:41:47
Madison practitioners if you if if a
00:41:52
doctor doesn't have a knowledge of of
00:41:56
biology you would be it would be fair
00:41:59
to call him or her and likewise if a
00:42:03
biologist never does anything that has
00:42:06
any relevance at all anything abductor
00:42:09
might want to know yes there's room for
00:42:13
that but if most of them did never did
00:42:15
anything like that. It would be sort of
00:42:18
an irrelevant discipline and we don't
00:42:21
wanna be that HCI is way too important
00:42:24
to let that happen now there were
00:42:28
always walls for those of you. This is
00:42:31
kind ninety for okay we have a chair
00:42:37
here. Um we have don Patterson was at
00:42:41
Lawrence Livermore lab labs at the time
00:42:43
roll smith at story northeastern me
00:42:46
him. And ben Schneider minute
00:42:48
university merriment and you know how I
00:42:51
was young and small and more
00:42:53
importantly it was undifferentiated.
00:42:56
This may be true in your country there
00:42:58
are certainly countries right now
00:42:59
around the world and and whole
00:43:01
continents where this is the case but
00:43:04
the dynamics of the same whether your
00:43:06
portal or not and oh by the way wasn't
00:43:08
just because of the drinks this is a a
00:43:13
type two thousand two workshop and a
00:43:16
number of these faces are familiar
00:43:19
faces including the person the woman in
00:43:22
the front row giving you the exactly
00:43:27
where I ah okay. So what we do now
00:43:33
they're I think they're two things
00:43:34
there's a bunch of attitudes that we
00:43:35
need to think about and there's some
00:43:36
behaviour and yes attitudes can follow
00:43:39
behaviour but let's look at it. Um
00:43:42
first as our attitudes of the first of
00:43:45
the three attitudes I think that are
00:43:47
most important for us to develop or
00:43:49
awareness of our own mindset and our
00:43:52
own perspective our own blinders to the
00:43:55
extent we can do that and that is the
00:43:57
Berlin wall prior to its fallen
00:43:59
November ninth nineteen eighty and
00:44:01
nineteen eighty eighty nine sorry. Um
00:44:05
sometimes we discover these by accident
00:44:07
and this is happened to me a number of
00:44:08
times where we do something or say
00:44:10
something and it doesn't have the
00:44:13
impact that we meant to have it has
00:44:14
very different impact we go do you know
00:44:20
we all have those and that's a really
00:44:22
good place for awareness to start is
00:44:25
that those times you know paying
00:44:27
attention that those teachable moment
00:44:28
so to speak. And using them to sort of
00:44:30
deep in our own understanding of
00:44:32
ourselves now we also need to be
00:44:35
willing. This is the Berlin wall again.
00:44:38
We need to be willing to work across
00:44:41
the wall so to speak chip at it and
00:44:44
tear down it takes a lot of courage and
00:44:47
it takes a lot of confidence too
00:44:49
companies that you do have something to
00:44:52
offer each other encouraged to do what
00:44:54
may not feel comfortable at least at
00:44:58
first lastly you know we need to
00:45:02
develop respect and trust we need to
00:45:07
and and the end result of all of this
00:45:11
is that we'll have better practise and
00:45:13
better research okay so with me so far
00:45:18
yeah okay so how we actually do this I
00:45:22
mean yes respect I respect or how do I
00:45:25
actually make a linkage well you can
00:45:28
think of but really bridge as being
00:45:31
stepping stones across the law and
00:45:36
forming relationships understanding the
00:45:39
other person's perspective as well as
00:45:41
our own learning about the world
00:45:44
collaboratively first step at this you
00:45:49
can you can for instance read business
00:45:53
publications are books as an academic
00:45:55
work and this is this is seminars or
00:45:58
have a used on people in practise can
00:46:01
link with business schools academics
00:46:04
you might wanna join your XPA it's
00:46:07
cheap and it's got a great magazine and
00:46:09
that the journal. Um and so there there
00:46:13
are certainly ways that we can learn
00:46:15
about are each other's world even if we
00:46:17
are actually partnering with anybody we
00:46:20
can prepare ourself and then we can
00:46:26
actively partner right on projects and
00:46:28
teaching whatever. Um for academics the
00:46:32
real world emphasis can balance the
00:46:36
academic tendency toward
00:46:37
specialisation. And its risks of
00:46:40
fragmentation fragmentation just makes
00:46:43
it harder to integrate the knowledge
00:46:46
and identify potential application of
00:46:49
that knowledge. Um so by working
00:46:52
together on projects or on teaching. We
00:46:55
can help to in to help to inform both
00:47:00
sides of the equation. And respect here
00:47:04
it is again but here I mean in in terms
00:47:07
of committing to work through
00:47:09
misunderstanding. So not giving up just
00:47:14
because things get difficult or because
00:47:16
you get hold out for thinking extra Y
00:47:19
and it insults the other person
00:47:21
whatever you have to stick with it it
00:47:23
takes time yeah the next two slides are
00:47:28
classic bad slides right yes they are
00:47:33
however. I have a stack of them down
00:47:38
here if anybody wants a paper copy or
00:47:42
I've also put them on my website. So
00:47:46
there are a lot of things that
00:47:49
academics can do to make this bridge
00:47:51
with practitioners. And I'm really
00:47:55
kinda like the idea of a bunch of
00:47:59
academics from high submitting to users
00:48:04
you you XP A.'s magazine you S or to
00:48:08
the journal journal of usability
00:48:09
studies. Um I think that both of those
00:48:13
two really really really use your
00:48:15
input. And use your perspectives
00:48:18
practitioners can do a lotta stuff to
00:48:21
obviously but I think for me the one
00:48:25
seeking help with messy problems that's
00:48:28
been at all really been valuable done
00:48:32
as a number of times and I want to
00:48:34
thank you. Some of you are out here in
00:48:37
you know who you are they're also on my
00:48:41
website. Um and actually can just you
00:48:44
trade a calm because at the moment
00:48:45
that's the thing on top for those of
00:48:50
you who know me this will not be a
00:48:51
surprising slide I think we need to
00:48:55
celebrate together have fun. It's not
00:48:59
you know we'll learn better when we're
00:49:01
having fun right and celebrations can
00:49:05
be big like this or they can be worked
00:49:09
what happened or they can be small this
00:49:11
is terrible blind me in we were the
00:49:15
humane interface in nineteen eighty
00:49:17
five eighty six where we gave
00:49:19
individual yeah I guess to everybody
00:49:21
was on the conference committee I mean
00:49:22
obviously that's not really practical
00:49:24
now but it was a lot of fun back then
00:49:26
and then it doesn't happen overnight.
00:49:30
So you just have to keep doing it
00:49:34
repeat and repeat and repeat there lots
00:49:38
of pressures driving us apart. And we
00:49:41
have to commit for the long term we
00:49:43
have to commit to keep going even when
00:49:45
things get rocky because I say when not
00:49:47
if because they will get rocky. They
00:49:50
will okay so this is the tell "'em"
00:49:53
what you told "'em" slide we've talked
00:49:57
about these things today you know what
00:49:59
the problem is what we the fact that we
00:50:02
should care about it some ideas as to
00:50:04
why the problem is there with because
00:50:07
we live in different worlds. And I
00:50:10
really hope that we can find better
00:50:14
ways to work together to bring down
00:50:17
these walls of our respective work
00:50:19
between our respective worlds like it
00:50:20
will make work more relevant more
00:50:23
enjoyable more impact full. And I know
00:50:26
this "'cause" I've seen it happen in
00:50:29
very strong academic industry
00:50:32
partnerships and and number of you in
00:50:34
this room are involved in just those
00:50:36
kinds of partnerships. So another thing
00:50:38
that you guys can do is talk about
00:50:42
these talk about them with your
00:50:44
academic colleagues who may not yet be
00:50:47
involved in these kinds of things. And
00:50:49
even consider mentoring them because
00:50:51
you know you're further down the road
00:50:53
we have to become what I think are
00:50:59
engage scholars and thoughtful
00:51:02
practitioners I really love this phrase
00:51:05
I think it really inc happy cap
00:51:07
encapsulates what I think is most
00:51:10
important because if we become engage
00:51:13
scholars by definition we're going to
00:51:16
be working across that wall we're gonna
00:51:19
get rid of that well and we're gonna
00:51:21
have better research more interesting
00:51:23
research in more opportunities for
00:51:25
students. And I've already told you I
00:51:28
think practitioners desperately need to
00:51:31
have academic help too. So it's just a
00:51:36
some this has been my motto since the
00:51:40
beginning of time I think it's the user
00:51:46
can't use it it doesn't work. It's also
00:51:50
true that if the academic can't use it
00:51:53
or the practitioner can't use it then
00:51:55
we're still not and I want to sum this
00:52:02
up but I need to ask some of my friends
00:52:05
she in green shirts and not green
00:52:09
shirts. And I by anybody in the room
00:52:12
would like to come up this gives you a
00:52:14
little bit of a of kind of an idea of
00:52:17
what we're gonna be doing right and for
00:52:19
those of you who didn't know about this
00:52:21
you don't have to dance I'm not gonna
00:52:23
dance. I would be frightening. But you
00:52:26
know you can just come in pop a little
00:52:28
bit okay come on am I mean at least one
00:52:33
more person thank you come on my my
00:52:35
excellent okay now this may turn out to
00:52:40
be complete disaster and don't hold it
00:52:43
against me it don't hold it against
00:52:45
them for sure "'cause" they're innocent
00:52:47
they're just helping yeah okay that we
00:52:53
read in one and then yeah okay Ooh ooh
00:52:59
ooh ooh or or I have Uh I I I I I I I I
00:53:52
I I yeah super bridging start yeah yeah
00:54:11
I am. I and I I think I don't I I I I I
00:54:56
I I I I I I yeah superb Reading stuff
00:55:25
yeah I I I I I I I I I I I I I yeah
00:55:54
well I I just I I oh and I yeah yeah I
00:56:20
I I I I superb writing stuck I oh oh
00:56:47
yeah you do need to start a new career
00:56:54
project dancing. I can wonderful I just
00:56:58
it was great I can't wait to see the
00:57:00
video I was too busy stumbling over the
00:57:02
words that are no rehearsal I know I
00:57:04
know there was no rehearsal I just that
00:57:06
come up here at this time and do it.
00:57:09
But I think they did very well. So I
00:57:12
thank you very much wait second what
00:57:16
happened the last one okay says thank
00:57:28
you and many different languages that's
00:57:30
all okay so we have some time for
00:57:44
questions or comments or arguments or
00:57:48
more dancing never decide whatever you
00:57:55
use when you question starts. So this
00:57:57
is then you literally brought you
00:58:00
absolutely where we should continue to
00:58:03
pursue Colorado boulder so just first
00:58:05
observation that question. Um for a
00:58:10
community of people who are so could
00:58:12
minute is so committed to the practise
00:58:15
of people in other domains obesity the
00:58:19
things that we do need is a wonder that
00:58:22
we're gonna tend to our own practise
00:58:24
yeah lakers children I think yeah right
00:58:28
and then there is an academic practise
00:58:29
too so there's all kinds of taxes but
00:58:31
in in terms of the UX practise it's a
00:58:33
wonder that we don't attend to that and
00:58:35
so that would be a separate for great
00:58:37
research project right which itself
00:58:38
would be kind of a a bridging exercise
00:58:41
as well. Um the question is I I love
00:58:43
the photos that you you showed us and
00:58:46
eye candy before was actually my very
00:58:48
first call I so I do you recall it once
00:58:52
you set the feeling of having this much
00:58:55
more integrated purpose I think and so
00:58:59
I think you for we activating that
00:59:01
memory of mine has a young graduate
00:59:04
student I wonder if we if you think
00:59:08
that HCI six SNL just both the
00:59:11
discipline both the practise both the
00:59:14
actual interaction of things that we do
00:59:16
our devices if it's six ass has in the
00:59:19
reason we have actually splintered so
00:59:21
much as our attention divided have we
00:59:23
had to specialise I mean is that you
00:59:26
know what are the what are I wonder
00:59:28
what are the many factors that have led
00:59:30
of course to these then different
00:59:32
temporal schedules and different
00:59:34
incentive structures and all these
00:59:35
things I wonder if it's the very
00:59:37
success of it that it's to yeah I think
00:59:40
that's a really good point I do think
00:59:42
the fact that when a when a discipline
00:59:45
is young. It's pretty tight right it's
00:59:49
undifferentiated. We don't we didn't
00:59:51
have mobile HCINCSCW and group and all
00:59:55
these other types the pieces of of the
00:59:59
area that are kind of slicing and
01:00:00
dicing. And I think whenever you have
01:00:02
that inevitably you have this potential
01:00:05
for there to be a rupture it isn't true
01:00:08
across the board I know the
01:00:10
professional organisation at that which
01:00:13
oh it was formed by originally by folks
01:00:15
from the a anthropology. Um sphere.
01:00:20
They make a very explicit their mission
01:00:23
is but they are going to be
01:00:24
interdisciplinary between different
01:00:27
disciplines and also between academics
01:00:29
and practitioners and they are very I
01:00:31
mean almost almost like you know it's
01:00:35
police about it which isn't necessarily
01:00:38
good but that that's wrong commitment
01:00:41
on their website. I think gets a
01:00:43
different just to a particular meaning
01:00:45
across thanks Hi john Thomas as you
01:00:51
probably know okay so I sympathise with
01:00:55
the theme of the talk and I've been
01:00:57
thinking about our relations are sick I
01:01:00
relationship with you accent human
01:01:02
factors and some other people it also
01:01:06
occurs to me and maybe even hinted at
01:01:08
this that then in addition to these two
01:01:11
groups there's a much larger group of
01:01:13
people we're actually doing and in fact
01:01:17
the user experience who know that they
01:01:20
are but there don't belong to either
01:01:22
any of these organisations and then I
01:01:26
would say my intuition is I don't have
01:01:28
any data that there's any even much
01:01:30
larger group of people that should be
01:01:32
doing HCI and you act. But don't even
01:01:35
have any idea that they should be doing
01:01:38
a let alone that they should be
01:01:39
learning from one of these
01:01:40
organisations I mean do you have no I I
01:01:43
agree with you I think I you know when
01:01:45
we think about design for instance and
01:01:47
design thinking and designers they're
01:01:50
huge numbers of designers and design
01:01:52
thinkers. Um out there who they buy
01:01:56
large are the card on or you XP A.'s
01:02:00
meeting. Um but they're huge and other
01:02:03
organisations are huge huge huge. And
01:02:07
but I I agree with you I think there
01:02:09
are still there's a lot of room for
01:02:11
helping people understand the value and
01:02:14
importance of HTI will do a better job
01:02:16
but that if we're reinforcing each
01:02:18
other smashes is I think so then your
01:02:21
question okay I see some Margaret read
01:02:26
target state I really liked the point
01:02:29
that you made in your talking and so I
01:02:31
was thinking about how how we could
01:02:35
sort of inspire some of the younger
01:02:36
people in the audience who were
01:02:38
thinking well I want to do that but
01:02:40
what exactly is a look like. So I was
01:02:42
wondering if you could just tell us one
01:02:43
concrete example maybe that you've been
01:02:45
part of where I where you or or
01:02:47
somebody in industry the you know
01:02:49
partnered up with academia in a way
01:02:51
that helped everyone that's great
01:02:54
example I mean agree question trying to
01:02:56
think of a really good example I know
01:02:59
they're couple of you in this audience
01:03:00
to have great examples anybody care to
01:03:02
say oh you're putting me on the spot on
01:03:08
but I think I know we were working on a
01:03:13
bunch of really complicated controls
01:03:18
for it and advanced piece of scientific
01:03:21
measurement equipment. And I was
01:03:24
consulting to accompany about that. And
01:03:28
we brought in the try to say this in a
01:03:31
way that doesn't violate my
01:03:33
confidentiality agreement we brought in
01:03:36
people from academia who were trained
01:03:38
in the subject that the people who
01:03:41
we're gonna be using this this
01:03:43
scientific equipment work problem or
01:03:47
were knew what the requirements would
01:03:50
be from their purse from their
01:03:52
perspective. And it was we could never
01:03:54
done that without them. And they
01:03:57
couldn't have ever done with they could
01:03:59
ever built this you know equipment
01:04:01
themselves because it was just you know
01:04:04
it was just too big for them. So I see
01:04:10
is it more to the university of
01:04:11
minnesota. So I guess a comment and
01:04:15
then maybe a couple questions try I
01:04:18
thought you know you you said you said
01:04:21
I guess researchers and practitioners
01:04:23
in our area should work together just
01:04:25
as biologists and medical people should
01:04:27
work together. I I mean I I'm just
01:04:30
going to guess but I presume biologist
01:04:32
and medical people totally don't work
01:04:34
together that they go to completely
01:04:35
different conferences. And so I wonder
01:04:38
S feels mature if that's just not
01:04:40
inevitable. And then the second thing
01:04:42
is you know it occurs to me many
01:04:45
academics we're working on let's say
01:04:49
interactive systems that we are applied
01:04:51
field. And racial works with people who
01:04:53
do disaster management. I've worked
01:04:55
with people do transportation many
01:04:58
people have worked with practitioners
01:04:59
in the health and that so and so I I
01:05:03
think it's not so much that there's a
01:05:05
wall between researchers and user
01:05:09
usability professionals as researchers
01:05:12
are working with people on application
01:05:13
areas and maybe this bifurcation it I
01:05:16
mean people who are you know creating
01:05:19
you knowledge a new techniques and
01:05:20
applying it in domains versus people
01:05:22
who are applying well known techniques.
01:05:25
It's it's not so much that there's a
01:05:27
wall is just a separation of concerns.
01:05:30
So I don't know I wonder what you think
01:05:32
of that well you're one of the people
01:05:35
who I know does really good research
01:05:39
together with practitioners. And what
01:05:42
so but not usability prime yeah I don't
01:05:47
mean practitioner as meeting somebody
01:05:49
runs usability evaluations
01:05:51
practitioners can come in all different
01:05:53
flavours you're really good at it but
01:05:57
trust me there are a hell of a lot of
01:05:59
people out there who are not a lot of
01:06:02
them. So it may be that you don't see
01:06:03
it so much because that's not the world
01:06:05
you live in but it is true that it is
01:06:07
out there. I've seen it it's scary hi
01:06:13
I'm Susan van dam design one of these
01:06:15
practitioners standing and you just
01:06:17
talk really loud sorry I'm I'm season
01:06:19
amazon. And yeah I just my night mostly
01:06:23
just to say at thank you for this
01:06:25
presentation it really I did resonate
01:06:27
with me fifteen years in the field back
01:06:30
usability user research a lot of those
01:06:34
things are really true very true but
01:06:37
also I think from the practitioner
01:06:40
point of view a lot of S realise that
01:06:42
these are problems and and like I was
01:06:45
able to convince my boss to come to
01:06:46
this compensation here. I am the only
01:06:49
person here from Amazon so one of the S
01:06:53
success stories but the other thing is
01:06:55
that they're now we're now doing a lot
01:06:57
more internal conferences because we
01:06:59
can't publish outside we can't talk
01:07:03
about our research we can talk about
01:07:04
what we're dealing and so and I don't
01:07:08
know about the smaller companies that
01:07:09
the larger companies you know there is
01:07:11
kind of a coming together of
01:07:13
researchers to say we can't use this we
01:07:16
need to do it on our own we call we
01:07:18
call portion on each other and monthly
01:07:21
we get together and do that so I say
01:07:24
not at all is lost but this is a great
01:07:27
talk and I can't wait to share that
01:07:29
with my him some peers. That's great
01:07:32
that's great and I I think you're right
01:07:34
that as people who are doing in user
01:07:36
experience work or doing more and more
01:07:38
confidential as they get into more
01:07:41
cutting edge things it becomes harder
01:07:42
and harder I know I I can talk to about
01:07:46
most a stuff that I've done because of
01:07:47
the confidentiality agreements I have
01:07:50
and so in those cases you know you're
01:07:52
sort of taking that and making it into
01:07:55
a positive by using by having an
01:07:57
internal conference and as long as you
01:08:01
feel as long as there is enough
01:08:02
expertise in that group to really help
01:08:06
each other learn to cheek if necessary
01:08:10
I think it's great. So the job I'm glad
01:08:14
you're here and you've got the right
01:08:16
name too go for it well I don't have
01:08:22
the right name I'm Wendy Kellogg I
01:08:24
ninety four chair. And I also very much
01:08:29
appreciate you're talking the sentiment
01:08:32
behind it but I think I had a reaction
01:08:34
a little bit white Lawrence and what I
01:08:36
wanted to share was and a distinction
01:08:39
that bill gave or many yet at this two
01:08:42
thousand then eight I I commissioned
01:08:45
him actually to give the keynote on
01:08:46
science verses design then I think it's
01:08:48
applicable here and the distinction to
01:08:51
be made that I've always found very
01:08:53
interesting and very useful is that I
01:08:55
think it has to do with the different
01:08:57
purposes and it specifically the forms
01:09:00
of accountability of science verses
01:09:02
design and he's like I use hot of
01:09:04
flight both of fields and understands
01:09:06
them. So sigh Nancy said has it just
01:09:09
and the customer logical accountability
01:09:11
where they keep question is how do you
01:09:13
know what you know you know how to help
01:09:16
how what is the evidence and how you I
01:09:19
have you know that what they're
01:09:20
claiming is true like design like
01:09:24
practising usability and practise I
01:09:27
think has a static I can a bill or the
01:09:30
fundamental question is does it work
01:09:32
and and to ask that very broadly not a
01:09:34
static in the sense of what does it
01:09:36
look like and I think that's very
01:09:38
profound and I recall a discussion
01:09:41
among researchers and practitioners
01:09:43
that kind several years ago that
01:09:45
actually got quite heated and
01:09:46
contentious because I think in some
01:09:49
ways researchers don't understand
01:09:52
practise right they you know I what the
01:09:55
attempts that researchers have made to
01:09:58
be relevant to practise are
01:09:59
implications for design which is a very
01:10:02
shallow approach to trying to take a
01:10:05
fundamental knowledge or understanding
01:10:07
of something and apply it to you know
01:10:09
practise so I think it's very key to
01:10:11
what you're trying to do to discover
01:10:14
where the common ground this because
01:10:15
that has to be education on both sides
01:10:18
the researchers from the get go we're
01:10:20
not gonna know a lot about practical
01:10:23
situations in fact yeah the IBM
01:10:25
research where I spent almost thirty
01:10:27
years I was sent in my first year off
01:10:31
to consult for you know part of the
01:10:34
company where somebody was doing
01:10:35
usability engineering there yeah
01:10:37
problem that they were given was to
01:10:39
make a database search facility for IBM
01:10:42
products better "'cause" it was really
01:10:44
bad you could search for not modem and
01:10:46
get back all the modems that IBM had
01:10:49
for sale and so I said well let me take
01:10:51
a look at the you know the data that's
01:10:53
in your database and basically it was
01:10:56
completely I'm but you know there is
01:10:58
not even the same minimal set of
01:11:00
characteristics I said well here's your
01:11:02
problem you can't really make a good
01:11:04
search when your data are so you know
01:11:07
and even and screwed up is said well I
01:11:09
can't do anything about that that's not
01:11:11
that's off the table right right and so
01:11:13
that's the kind of difference
01:11:15
researcher wants to imagine how things
01:11:17
should be and imagine possible
01:11:19
solutions and I said yes I I will
01:11:21
screen out back to my ivory tower
01:11:23
because I feel for you but I have no
01:11:26
idea what to do right okay so it's the
01:11:28
common ground I don't know how we get
01:11:30
there but yeah that's really really
01:11:32
good observation oh very good ideals
01:11:36
and you see I I just wanna a little
01:11:39
less to list you put us all you know
01:11:40
kind of tips for researchers or
01:11:42
practitioners levels oriented similar
01:11:44
size what kinda at a couple things
01:11:46
mainly from on the academic side one is
01:11:49
jean I have done all of our sabbatical
01:11:51
as an industry. And that's been very
01:11:54
very enriching for us as as academics
01:11:58
"'cause" we understand better I think
01:11:59
what some of the so many issues are the
01:12:02
thing is that and I just think would
01:12:04
encourage other academics to think of
01:12:05
that as a as a as a real legitimate
01:12:08
option the other thing is we've had a
01:12:10
fair amount of the corporate funding
01:12:13
over the years. But for us it's not any
01:12:15
fun to have proper funny we can work
01:12:17
with the company and so almost all the
01:12:20
copper funding we've had it's been in
01:12:22
partnerships with the company but
01:12:24
problems that are of interest to them
01:12:26
again I think it. It's very easy for
01:12:27
academics to take the money and run and
01:12:30
I think I would just encourage my
01:12:31
academic colleagues two if you get
01:12:33
corporate funding to work with the
01:12:35
companies on things that are of
01:12:37
interest to them yeah there's lots of
01:12:39
protesting that thank you john I it's
01:12:43
john again yes I was gonna agree with
01:12:47
what Gary said and maybe expand on that
01:12:50
a little bit that you were asking
01:12:51
earlier for examples when I ran the AI
01:12:53
lab at night X we had some good
01:12:56
longterm collaboration with your heart
01:12:59
Fisher at university of Colorado and we
01:13:02
had exchanges of personnel only work on
01:13:05
common problems and and I think part of
01:13:07
the key there is also to do it over a
01:13:09
period of time not just kind of a one
01:13:11
off exactly develop the relationship
01:13:14
yeah yeah the other thing I was gonna
01:13:16
mention a a put a plug in any way for
01:13:19
one way of of collecting knowledge in a
01:13:25
way that's practical and allows you to
01:13:30
generalise across cases is the
01:13:32
development of a pattern language and
01:13:34
people are found this very useful for
01:13:36
example an object oriented programming
01:13:39
if people are interested they should
01:13:40
look up Christopher Alexander who was
01:13:42
an architect to look that architectural
01:13:45
solutions across a large number of
01:13:48
different cultures and different
01:13:49
situations and so on but some people
01:13:52
have applied that HCI as well okay
01:13:55
thank you question your this is from
01:13:58
from hundred unit university I have my
01:14:02
for them both was a as well. Um as of
01:14:05
what industry and academia. And from my
01:14:07
perspective the most important point
01:14:09
that you made was the creating of the
01:14:11
over a awareness of one's own awareness
01:14:14
of one's own assumptions what you learn
01:14:16
whenever you do it about every research
01:14:18
yes and it's it's even independent from
01:14:23
what we discussed here if it's it's
01:14:25
yeah practitioners a gi academics it's
01:14:27
it's even well it applies to to mankind
01:14:33
if it applies to also I think we should
01:14:36
start it's the education even before
01:14:40
the university. K twelve whatever. Um
01:14:44
to bring this awareness to the people.
01:14:46
"'cause" it doesn't matter if you talk
01:14:47
to "'em" mathematicians or computer
01:14:49
scientists or managers whatever this is
01:14:53
from from my perspective from my
01:14:54
experience of the very key that's when
01:14:57
you get to where if you want
01:14:58
assumptions. Um the sooner you are able
01:15:01
to understand whatever mental model or
01:15:05
minus the set a framework whatever
01:15:08
someone else is working on in or a
01:15:11
talking about. So that's from my
01:15:13
perspective the most important thing
01:15:16
the emphasis remains circuit sort of
01:15:18
and the second issue I found as well
01:15:20
it's a lot of times it is it's not the
01:15:24
bounds about science vessels
01:15:26
practitioners it's about a power
01:15:28
struggle. It's not like a power
01:15:31
struggle what power with power was
01:15:33
about to make the decision so you find
01:15:35
is an industry find is in the in the
01:15:37
academic world. Um which prison make to
01:15:40
the first point so if you're where of
01:15:43
field and assumptions if you wear field
01:15:45
eagle this is from my perspective the
01:15:48
most important step to to to understand
01:15:51
and develop empathy and so on and so
01:15:53
forth it's great in you mentioned to
01:15:56
the idea of intellectual maturity to be
01:15:59
aware of of that but being mature
01:16:02
enough to know about it. So well this
01:16:05
in it's time for us to stop I'm happy
01:16:07
to talk to anybody who wants to talk
01:16:09
more there are sheets down here with
01:16:11
the bulleted list if you're interested
01:16:14
in paper and if not feel free to go to
01:16:17
the website I'd love to hear what you
01:16:19
have to say about this. Thank you so
01:16:21
much and especially thanks to our
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