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Q&A - Building the physiology of thought
Rebecca Saxe, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, USA
Thursday, Oct. 22, 2015 · 12:10 p.m. · 17m 01s
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Oh right our yeah I guess year or not
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there is some are yeah but I I into
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spatial. Well speechwriter. We
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ambiguous So channel or or do you
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understand how are we we did with
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either not of those emotions or less
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alacrity every once in a while okay so
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there's a whole bunch of ideas make
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into that time am. So happy coding
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certainly has been used to like that
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question that you're actually what that
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could still find another way that maybe
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when you're at your ad. So a motion
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attributions are not binary categories
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they are right it's not like we see
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somebody a we think you are
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experiencing only fury and nothing else
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there's a continuous representational
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space psychologically is their
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continuous space narrowly. So in the
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data certainly is a continuous space so
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we can say the more so so here's a
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dimension that we can because I didn't
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I that is your belief justified. So
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this is something that matters a moral
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judgement I told you about race who
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believes that hotter sugar because it
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in a jar next to coffee machine and
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it's labelled sure but I can very how
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good her reason is for believing that
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sure what it's just a chart chemical
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factory and she thinks it's sure well
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that she doesn't want to cause harm but
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you shouldn't have thought it a shot
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make that was negligent and
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irresponsible okay so there's a
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continuous dimension there I've have
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good reason is for believing that it's
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out there. So I can imagine that
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continuous variation in your moral
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judgements it makes a very big
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difference is something juries have to
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pay attention to a very fine grained
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differences in reasons for believing
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and that shows up in the neural right.
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So the more you have a good reason for
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believing that you add won't cause harm
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them or different the pattern as from
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where you have a bad that the
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continuous dimension in the neural
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pattern. So it's possible to create
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very ambiguous stories that we'll have
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next and not to tell that but failures
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the decoding or totally meaningless
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what's interesting is can you for
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example create a next and then focus is
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focused people's attention on one
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dimension or another and so that the
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dimension for example that they're
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attending to is the one that you can
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decode and we can do that yeah and a CD
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honesty vision council Afghanistan like
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the fact that the examples you gave us
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essentially the middle class about
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going to the gym losing luggage texting
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one drive in Eugene Kate you know all
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the lighting and camping and so on. So
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you know is this really a serial middle
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class mind all really do represent the
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broadest possible range of human
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emotional experience yeah so there's a
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lot packed into that question and a lot
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of possible answers. So a fixed the
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experiments that I showed you the
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stimulate that we made our intended to
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draw unfamiliar emotional experiences
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for the characters. But I think I'd
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even fundamental question in theory of
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mind and and not just another
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scientifically is what is the scope of
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our capacity to represent the kinds of
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experiences we have a tad can we
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understand them at a lives of people
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way beyond our personal experiences and
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and that is one of the questions I
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worked on for the last ten years not
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using a class difference usually and
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although I think class and cultural
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very interesting dimension but using
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something in some ways cleaner. So we
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wanted already ten years ago to think
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about what group of human beings who
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might never have had a certain kind of
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experience but never had the chance to
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learn about it. So that we could ask
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that having the experience or learning
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about it affect your mental
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representation and that we did that
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with congenital E blind people thinking
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about that. There's so ten years. But I
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think can generally blind people what
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they know about the experiences of
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seeing. And one of the things that we
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found is that in the right TVJ in
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technical in healthy side adults.
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There's the rubber response to stories
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about other people's experiences of
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hearing and CN but you can decode
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whether the people and the stories are
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hearing or CN and that we have whether
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for blind people that dimension if
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hearing versus seeing is also encoded
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in the pattern of responsibility BJ and
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it is so blind people do distinguish
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hearing and seeing in their other
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people hearing in in the right to BJ
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the same way we do and in fact in a big
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behavioural experiment with adding new
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ones to blind people have and what they
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know about experiences a CN so do they
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know for example that glowing is more
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similar to shining than it is to
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glittering right that's a very subtle
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distinction and they do in fact so far
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in a whole bunch of incredibly subtle
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experiments we can't find anything
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sighted people know about site that
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blind people don't know and the other
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and there's a lot about blindness that
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sighted people don't know jumps up
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against a have you thought about
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looking at I thought about looking at
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people who I guess we would classify so
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if your pass. So they bring to your
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best completely for this perverted you
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know other people's thoughts and
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emotions there is there really
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fascinating research something company
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and and make it down again referred to
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some of this the consensus in that
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field seems to be that psychology is
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not a destruction of theory of mind
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it's not an incapacity to know what
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somebody else is thinking in fact
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segment sometimes are particularly good
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and knowing what somebody else's
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thinking they just don't care. And the
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capacity to care about what somebody
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else's thinking is associated with a
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different part of this number one we
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have studied but that I didn't talk
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about which is immediately profound
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awkward acts. So what we've shown for
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example is that while the right TVJ
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cares about things like you have good
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reason for your believes media profound
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text cares about you feel happy or sad
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did you achieve your goals are not and
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it's primarily in video profound to
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cortex the deficit show lack in like on
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the this is actually a case I didn't
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get to talk about the find so
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fascinating so I briefly referred to
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this at the end of my talk what we only
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thing is that in from brains are more
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plastic than adult brains which means
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that they're more resilient to damage
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that hard principle it's the thing that
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it there you know kind of default
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hypothesis by these days that for
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example if you have less time is
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fuelling the damage the language cortex
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the same damage has less devastating
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effects in in fact that's true then the
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damage occurred and at and but there
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are exceptions and one of the
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exceptions is meant to be don't we
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kinds of projects. So damage in adults
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had eventually do improvement cortex
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has that has the affects causes
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datasets in decision making and a moral
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judgement. But the equivalent damage in
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infancy has totally devastating effects
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much worse than the same damage an
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adult side. So there's something about
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centimetre frontal cortex role in the
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learning of moral judgement they can't
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be compensated for by other cortical
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regions it's the opposite of early
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plasticity and I find that incredibly
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fascinating but for what it says about
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that should be to profound overtaxed
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and from what it was about really
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social are going Uh about that
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tradition is a euro on this one but
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from the nutritionist is minimal your
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your like guess vice versa. So other
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mutations minded no not much faster oh
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and you have to write down up or down
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base oh a set of information. I and
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then instantly did I'm I'm interested
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in two writers at the moment john eight
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and rubber hand for it but there being
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two file under the right one it's
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related about about the morality oh oh
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right some wrongs about treat them I
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think that's the end point for us we
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are just for all subsequent information
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based on that immediate decision. So if
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you start talking about the insurance
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company you start talking about I'm not
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exactly about the they should have
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thought of this or that you think it is
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I handy man oh I don't I don't
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necessarily change it based on is oh
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you're apology or see anything R that's
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what I oh I oh oh okay. So for a given
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decision that you're making it possible
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to put two factors that go into that
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decision on one spectrum and call the
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ends sort of fast into the heuristic
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automatic at the other end slow
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deliberate of reflective consciously
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accessible. Um and the framework for
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thinking about in a different process
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has turned out to be a powerful
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metaphor that lead to a lot of good
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research. So that's true a simple
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minded mapping of those aren't to maybe
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just literally to in any sense has to
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be wrong there's nothing no function
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not even the simplest decision that
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relies on one or two or a small
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countable number of brain regions are
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systems and and so I don't like is yes
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that is well regarded as a as a as a
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metaphor for helping to organise our
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thinking about individual problems. But
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when then you then try to say okay
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there's an automatic and slow
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reflective processes they go into
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deciding whether I wanted to meet over
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an apple right now. And there's fast
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automatic in slow reflective process is
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they go into deciding whether somebody
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deserves to be jailed for murder or
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not. But is the fast automatic process
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the same one is that one fact automatic
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process for immediately grabbing an
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apple in sending somebody to jail no
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definitely not and so again I think
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that the services and that this is this
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is a metaphor is powerful but the
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version of it that there are two brains
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in any sense it's not so Q system
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caskets from nestle. Thank you very
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much for that that would first meeting
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a very simple technical question your
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subjects are really or listening to
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these stories and what the sense that
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we haven't but but so for the brain
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systems that I study these
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representations are extremely abstract
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and we've shown there's no effective
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whether you're Reading a story watching
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a movie or listening to a story. And
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one of the other things we've shown is
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that as I just mentioned there's no
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effect of the history of your personal
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sensory experience of these abstract
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representations are the same can
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generally blind people as they are
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inside people there extremely resilient
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just had to experience although they
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represent other people's sensory
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experiences that they're very abstract
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to your own sensory experience. And one
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of the things we've also studied is at
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so like other brain regions of course
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are not and so outside of I think you
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you can think of their response of
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representation to these stories as the
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combination of many different
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representational systems some of which
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are responsive to the details of the
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experience of the stimulus and another
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to the more abstract structure that
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you're creating out of that stimulus
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and this particular breed region. It's
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highly abstract resistant to the
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stimulus an experience just two years
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ago it was a cool okay and the right to
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decide which is would be for only to
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the the the poor for politicians plates
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okay for political complaints. So so my
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question is can you really know for the
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encoding you guys can you really on the
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wiki oh it's it's gonna be good colour
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feelings to make example I might work
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best "'cause" that's what explain to me
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this is how you probably know trailers
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for movies maybe you might actually see
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scum so I'm a cognitive not just and I
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use functional I'm right. And as a
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consequence I feel that I have to tell
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a pretty fine line in the outside world
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on the one hand. I don't want to
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believe almost anything you ever read
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about from right because there's a
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phenomenal amount of crap. Um in the
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literature in the public press about
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the literature my guess is more than
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half of what people tell you about the
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brain based on an image of the lighting
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is false. So everyone's just a buyer
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beware in general I don't believe
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anything I read. But I mean I and many
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people have heard that before come to
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that conclusion on their own. And I
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also don't want to write off and mine
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because it is totally possible to use
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that for my in a programmatic
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productive systematic way to test
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hypotheses but strong power and
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genuinely distinguish between
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hypotheses. And I think that about five
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years ago there was a tendency for
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people to see inside in the M right
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community and this time I'm right cell
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phones that fall it could never be
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trusted and that is also wrong. And so
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I'd say that it is it technically
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possible to do the right after my
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experiment that could tell the person
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you are interested and right there are
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robots word signals in the brain that
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you can measure or inner imaging and so
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do you think about your responses are
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what you're going for in your political
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campaign it is certainly possible that
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either now or in the future or I could
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be a more reliable marker the
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experience of reward and saw support
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right if you're alternatives are
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introspection and self report or I I
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mean I think interest and self
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operatively deserve at least as much
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suspicion as I'm right as right to very
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unreliable measures and it's certainly
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possible that research you could get a
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number I measure that it's more
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protective of behaviour then people
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suffer supported and I know one person
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who's done this the families fall who
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works at U Penn do this with smoking
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cessation campaigns she compared the
00:15:19
activations in different in to people
00:15:21
wanting smoking cessation camping. And
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then use activity to protect responses
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when the kids were wheeled out in all
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states to real smoking cessation
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hotlines. So the these really three
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actual smoking cessation campaigns and
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outcome measure wise during that video
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hotline numbers at the bottom which
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video produced remote phone calls to
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the hotline number. And she found. This
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is a very small so they can comparing
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three minutes to one another. So just
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weakening it no religion responses
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could do rather than self reflective of
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responses out a focus group in
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predicting which of those campaigns
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would be most effective in generate a
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hotline calls. So it is certainly
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possible that the neurology. So I could
00:16:09
help you tailor a political campaign if
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you knew what you were you were
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interested in and you do the experiment
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right but my glasses chances are that
00:16:17
hasn't happened I more common going but
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to mike's the fifty percent percent
00:16:28
this week. So we is I happen to be a
00:16:31
form in your site is trying to
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understand attrition. And maybe you
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underestimate what I learned us which
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is how emotional relationship with food
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and we share. So actually your work is
00:16:45
extremely relevant to what we're trying
00:16:46
to do especially talk about brain
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development if you can into the three
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